The Ernst Großmann Interview

Q: What was your role?

A: After Hitler came to power, I was with a unit of sailplanes, around 1933 or 1934.

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Q: And what did you do there?

A: I was with the NS (National Socialist) pilot corps and we built sailplanes there out of wood and "Segeltuch" (fabric that is used to make the sails for boats); and we reinforced the "Segeltuch" with glue. We also made hang gliders. It was two or three times then flying. I had to leave and go to the medical evaluation. After the evaluation, I was sent to the air defense. I was supposed to go to a medical unit but that did not sit well with me. Since I had to be a soldier I wanted to be a real soldier, not a medic who had to carry the piss pot around and take the people's temperatures. That's why I went to a regular unit. And since the air defense unit was mechanized, I was supposed to go to school to get some type of driver's license for a motorcycle, a regular vehicle, or a truck. We also had track vehicles to pull out artillery but I was not interested in getting a license for that. I didn't want to be a great warrior. I got a regular license from the driver's school and after that, I had to perform 6 months of mandatory military service. That was the law at the time. I completed that in the fall of 1935. Until September 1936, I worked again in my regular job as a dental technician in a lab in Stuttgart.

Early September 1936, I was drafted and was sent to Ludwigsburg, to an air defense unit. My unit was the 1st Company and I was trained as a distance measurer. I was with the unit until the beginning of the war, I also worked at company headquarters. I then moved on to the division where the units were pulled together for the war. I was for 2 years in Ludwigsburg, from 1937-39. And 6 months before the war began, we pulled together the units by assigning people, and certain amounts of vehicles and motorcycles. We did that for six months.

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The war started in September of 1939; I was still in Ludwigsburg to wrap up things. The units were called mobilized units (abbreviated as mob units). I stayed in Ludwigsburg until all of these units had left for their destinations; most of them were sent west of the Rhine River, in the direction of France. I was still in Ludwigsburg; I don't know when all of the mob units had deployed but from Ludwigsburg I was sent to my unit to which I was supposed to go all along! In the vicinity of Heilbronn. My unit's assignment at that time was to protect the airport there. They were manufacturing cars down there; nowadays, they still build the Audi down there. Back then, they produced Rench [sic], Adler, and I can't remember the rest of them. We were supposed to defend the airport; we were behind the front lines, we were deployed with our 8.8 [cannon].

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The war started and a couple of times the French came to do reconnaissance, so we shot at them with little success; we first had to get warmed up and practice. Before the war, we practiced a lot but then, when the war started it was different from the practice. Then came the invasion of Czechoslovakia and we went there. Again, we were behind the front and did air defense. On the average, not much happened there; the Czechs gave up fairly quickly and were overrun by our mechanized units. We invaded by tanks, vehicles, and motorcycles. After that was over with, we were sent back to Heilbronn; for a while, nothing was going on until the invasion of France began. I cannot remember when that was.

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Okay, the invasion of France started in the west. The invasion of Belgium, the Netherlands, and France began. It all kicked off with the crossing of the Rhine River into Alsace, from the South to the North. We were also there when D-Day, the invasion of Normandy took place. But at the beginning of the war, we were always behind the front. The main troops that fought at the front were the infantry and mechanized units. The tanks and so on. We went over France, we marched westwards; we went to Calais and Dunkirk, we did all of that. We pushed out the British; they went back to England through Dunkirk. They wanted to support the French but that did not work out well. At that time, we still were superior in numbers. For quite a while, nothing was happening. For at least 1 1/2 years I stayed in Calais and Dunkirk. That is where I met Grandma. That happened during that time, 1941-1942. But then the war started in the east with the Russians; so all the remaining troops were sent to the east to participate in the invasion of Poland and Russia through Lithuania. It also started in Norway. That was the eastern front.

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During the time when we were busy with the east—we went all the way to Moscow—the U.S. also got involved in the war. The U.S. troops went to England and pulled together combat units in preparation for the invasion across the English Channel. I just described everything in broad terms. I did not go to the eastern front. I left my job as a distance measurer; I was switched over to what nowadays is called radar. I was trained in Berlin as squad leader on the small radar apparatus with a range of 40km, and was later on the large apparatus with a range of 60 km. We operated it with "induction electricity"; we called it the locomotive. I don't know how to explain it; I am not an electrician. When you come to visit, I can show you what it looked like. I was always assigned to protect an airport, a port, or a factory, whatever was important for the war effort.

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When the Americans and the British crossed the channel to invade, that's when we were moved to the front with the 8.8 cannon, we shot at tanks, troops and anything else. Down in the Netherlands, the paratroopers jumped in by the hundreds and we shot at them. They could not do much while they were in the air so we shot at them. Hundreds of paratroopers died this way. Of course, it was also the Germans' turn. The paratroopers shooting down at the Germans while they were still floating in the air. And that was a really bad, bad time. At one time the alarm was sounded while we were sleeping, we were probably close to Nijmegen, somewhere down there. Anyway, the alarm was sounded and we all got up. By that time, day was breaking and we could tell what we were about to face. Of course, we defended ourselves: they were shooting at us and we were shooting back at them. But it was so terrible, I turned around and walked away. Somewhere, and I cannot tell you exactly where, there was a hole—or something like that—and I crawled into that. I told myself that they can go on shooting as much as they like but I had enough. I did not want to participate anymore. It is difficult to describe this; grenades would tear away body parts while the paratroopers were still in the air. It was horrible, simply terrible. Even now, just talking about it still gives me goosebumps. Once that was over, it was quiet for a while. Then came the great invasion, from the west, down in Boulogne and Bordeaux France, the narrowest part of the English channel. The Americans came with their landing crafts and a mass of airplanes; that was pretty bad. During that time, I was stationed at Laon, my last duty station. I can still remember the bombs falling; we were positioned on a hill and we could look down at everything.

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At that time, we no longer shot. First, we ran out of ammunition and second, we wanted to save our skins. We moved toward the North of France and until we reached Ghent in Belgium. I met up with Grandma in Lille. I don't quite remember now how it all worked out. I got a hold of a truck somewhere, and I and three or four guys picked up a couple of girls (among them Grandma) in Lille; we drove on country roads, only at night, until we reached Brussels. It could have been to Antwerp or Brussels, I don't remember. A train filled with soldiers, and civilian employees, and I don't know who else, went back to Germany, Grandma went back on this train. I don't remember if the train departed from Antwerp or Brussels. She went back—she was wearing a uniform; anyway, she went back to Giessen. In Giessen, she turned in her uniform and she was dismissed from the army. From Giessen, she went home to Grünberg, I didn't have any contact with her because she was gone and the war was moving closer.

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Q: Why did she turn in the uniform?

A: She was dismissed from the army because she was pregnant, and because of that, it was important. I knew she was pregnant and so I wanted her out of enemy territory, out of Belgium, as far east as possible. That's why she went to Grünberg. We were defeated, lost a lot of people. We regrouped and I was sent to Schwadorf, close to Brühl—and during that time you (i.e. your mom) were born. My unit received new equipment and was reinforced. After my unit was reorganized, we were again assigned to fight the invasion, to fight against the advancing Americans.

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Q: Where was that?

A: Good Lord, I don't remember where that was. Back to the Siebelferries. They were built during a break in the war. See the preparations were made against the East, against the Russians. At that time, we had won on the Western front. We had sent the British back home. The French, the Dutch, and the Belgians were no longer fighting.

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Q: You were in a state of peace?

A: Yes, it was a period of peace. Then someone had the idea to use the Siebelferries along with the artillery to secure a route, from Calais and Dunkirk to England. It was Hitler's idea to start an invasion of England. So we tested the Siebelferries; we tested them from the very North of the Netherlands to Calais and Boulogne through the channel. The channel had very quiet waters of course, one had to be careful because there were a lot of submarines in the area; the British conducted aerial surveillance and so did the Germans, with the ME-109 and the British Lightnings, maybe the Lightnings were American I don't remember. And the Spitfire, those were the fighter planes. Those were all whirring over the area while we were testing the Siebelferries. Somewhere I have a drawing of a Siebelferry; I may be able to find it. Well, we tested it.

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Later on... because the invasion began... once a submarine warning was given, we had to head toward land right away. Then came the airplanes in some type of formation which kept them (i.e. the subs) busy with bombardments and shooting of other types of ammunition; and during that time, we got away and landed at the coast and covered it (i.e. the Siebelferry) up with camouflage netting. We left the water right away when a submarine warning was given. The grenades that we shot at the airplanes had a timed fuse we set the timer so that it would go off at a certain time. That is what I determined as a distance measurer with the help of a measuring device, the altitude and the speed of the aircraft; once we determined how long the grenade would take, we set the timer. Once the grenade reached the pre-set altitude, it exploded into fragments, some of them real small.

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One time, one of the fragments fell down on me (apparently, that is the fragment you now have). I was stationed in Dunkirk when that fragment fell down. This was also the time when the V-1 rocket was launched from Germany and flew to London and caused so much damage there. Hand-to-hand combat, that was only in the North right before the end of the war. We had no artillery left, they destroyed everything we had. The only things left were our hand grenades and ammunition for our guns. One time, I came face to face with an enemy soldier, a Polish one. I was standing behind a generator and had my gun pointed at him, he didn't even notice at first, he noticed it too late when he looked at me, I just put away my gun and told him "Let it be." The only thing between us was a small bridge which had been destroyed; otherwise, he would have crossed it with his tank. The only things I had left were my steel helmet, my gun and a little bit left to eat. Other than that, I had nothing else. These conditions existed to the end of the war. At that time we had lost everything the only thing we cared about was to stay alive.

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Only two family members participated in the war. Uncle Heinrich, my brother. I believe that you have met him. The latter, he was in the infantry. And I. Besides us, no one else. Uncle Gerhard was not alive at that time. Well, I mean he was alive because he was born in 1932 but he was a student at the time. That was it; we only had us three boys. My family had 3 boys and 4 girls. Of those, none participated in the war because they were too young and still in school. Grandma was originally assigned to the Red Cross as Red Cross assistant, and later on, as the war was broadening in the West and in the East, they were looking for personnel to transmit messages via telephone and radio. That's how Grandma transferred from the Red Cross to the message center. There were messages specifically related to the Air Force, regarding planes or air defense and so on. That was the same for the Army. The girls were sitting in a center that was situated somewhere. When a call came in, a little trapdoor fell down so that one could plug in the cable, and then one was able to talk to the caller. Then whoever called would put in a request for things that were needed. Once the call ended, the cable was again unplugged.

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Q: Why are pictures showing Grandma in a German uniform?

A: Well, because you took them out. That was for a message center. The Air Force message center had a blue uniform.

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Q: What did Aunt Margot do?

A: Aunt Margot worked in the defense industry. She was assigned to a factory in Grünberg. I don't remember what they produced there; it could have been parts for machines or vehicles. I know that it wasn't ammunition because that was not being produced in Grünberg. My father was an administrator, he worked at city hall called a "Kämmerer". That is someone who was responsible for the financial administration, that is what my dad did during the war. And my mother was at home and all of my sisters went to school, including my brother who was born in 1932. No one of my family participated in WWI. My father was an administrator.

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Q: When was he born?

A: 1886. The 1st World War began 1914. My father was not a soldier, but instead a civil servant. Grandma's father was with the mounted police. Back then it was called "Landjäger", so he was a mounted "Landjäger." He was assigned to the border area between Germany and Poland, that area was called "Oberschlesien" [Upper Silesia]. He patrolled the border on his horse. The kind of helmet that Grandma's father wore originated during the time of Emperor Wilhelm. The different military units, be it the ground troops or the mounted troops, had different covers. Because he was a "Landjäger", he wore the helmet with a spike. I don't remember what it was called, maybe Uncle Günther (Grandma's father) knows. He was always in Oberschlesien.

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Q: Did you ever go to Silesia?

A: Of course, together with Grandma. I married in Silesia. Someone was from Silesia. Once we were there, we didn't have an apartment; my belongings didn't need one while I was in the war. Grandma stayed at home with her mother. Her brother, Uncle Günther was gone and Aunt Margot was away as well. Aunt Lisbeth—who is still alive—her husband Alois was gone, she was alone with her children. So, Grandma stayed with her mother and whenever I had leave, I went to Silesia.

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To call it "being captured" is using the wrong term. We were up north by Wilhelmshaven; the war ended on 8 May. We were marching back to Wilhelmshaven; in the evening, we came across some barracks that were suitable for shelter; I laid down on a bench and slept because I was completely exhausted. The next morning someone woke me up and told me that the war was over. I couldn't believe it. We were not really prisoners. The unit was re-formed and we had to march back to Wilhelmshaven. Once in Wilhelmshaven, we were put into a large camp that used to belong to the German Army. We were guarded by Polish soldiers. We did not get anything to eat. The storage facilities that were there, were plundered by the Polish soldiers. The Polish soldiers were then relieved; the Polish soldiers belonged to the so-called Anders-Army; it was named after the Polish General Anders.

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When the Germans invaded Poland, he escaped to England. He then formed an Army out of Polish immigrants and that was the Army that fought against us in the North, by Wilhelmshaven. They didn't really imprison us. We got up one morning to get something to eat and we were told that we had to march on. That's how we ended up in camps. We were put into Mariensiel, Richtersiel—"siel" is what they called it up there. So much for the Polish. The Polish soldiers were relieved, the Anders Army was recalled and returned to Poland which had been liberated by the Russians. The Russians were the ones that liberated Poland since they were coming from the East. Anyway, the Anders-Army went back to Poland and then came the Canadians. All of the guards units consisted of Canadians. We stayed there until October of 1945. The occupying force in Northern Germany were the Americans. In the middle part of Germany were the British and the French were in Southern Germany. In the southern part, close to here, not in Kirchheim but behind Kirchheim, by Oberlenningen was the border between the Americans, the British and the French. That's how the occupation zones were divided. Much later, we were released. The ones that were from North Germany, from Hamburg and Bremen, were allowed to go home. However, there were some who weren't too lucky. They were loaded up onto American ships and were taken to the United States. They had to work in the States. The French did that as well. They took these prisoners of war that they needed and that could work to France. They had to work in agriculture and other areas. We were in the camps for quite a while. The Canadians took care of us, they gave us food. The French did not give anything to eat. I would still like to give them a kick in the ass. Anyway, the Canadians gave us food. At the end of September 1945, the Canadians had us march to Wittmund, Wittmund was a larger sized town. It had an airport where we all had to gather. Then came a large train that had compartments for transporting goods. We were put into those compartments and were taken toward Southern Germany, because that is in the middle part of Germany the Canadians turned us over to the British. And then we were passed on to the Americans, because our area here was under American occupation. The train went to Ludwigsburg. That's it. And then I had to walk.

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Q: How long did it take you?

A: I don't remember.

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Q: Three weeks?

A: No, no, we ran into a farmer who was transporting fruit. It was October. He was driving the fruit to the place where they make cider out of it. Together with another guy, who now lives in Weilheim, I walked from Wernau across the hills to here. I personally had no dealings with the French. During the war, we fought against the Americans and their planes; in the fight against the tanks there were the British, the Americans, the Moroccans, blacks, and 3/4 blacks. I don't know from where they came. After the war was over and during my imprisonment, the best friendships I had was with a Canadian soldier—I often think of him. He was a Staff Sergeant. I got along with him great. We talked with our hands and feet. He hardly understood me, and I hardly understood him. He did not speak French, he spoke English. And since I spoke German, we always communicated with signals.

I supervised 200 people. And our task was to unload the ships. We unloaded tanks from a tank cruiser [sic] which had fallen to the... arrived from Leipzig. The tank cruiser was clear to the atoll later on. They dropped a nuclear bomb on it and then examined what was left of it. We unloaded ammunition from it (before it was taken to the atoll). Every morning I had my 200 men; I had to count them and then I had to report that all were present and accounted for. Then he gave us a "right face" and "march" and then we marched, then he divided up the men; he told me so that I could pass it on. We carried the tank grenades on our backs. You know how high the ships were. American and English ships docked at Wilhelmshaven after the war. They (I assume either the ships or the tanks) all were taken to the atoll where the Americans dropped one or two nuclear weapons. For a long time no one was allowed to live on that atoll, I think only recently were the inhabitants allowed to return. That was my job up in Northern Germany, after the war. I got along with that Canadian gentle well. Back then I was still smoking and that Canadian gave me a couple of cigarettes that knocked me off my feet every time I smoked them.

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I was not used to it (the Canadian cigarettes), we smoked any kind of cabbage we could get a hold of, and these were real cigarettes, Lucky Strike or something like that. While they were working, we went for a walk and talked. Some of my comrades are still alive. But each year, you find out that this guy and that guy died. We are all old now, we have not been meeting for years now because a lot of them are too sick. I am still in contact with the Austrian guy that I visited in Innsbruck. His name is Stefan Voletsch.

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Q: What happened to your awards? Where are they?

A: My awards?

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Q: Can we redeem them?

A: We would need to go to Berlin, to the arch. That's where the Russians are, you can buy anything from them.

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Q: What arch?

A: Well, in Berlin, the big thing. I can't remember its name. My awards were attached to my uniform and I left my uniform in Grünberg. Grandma, great-grandma and everybody else left and now the Polish have my uniform. I am convinced that one guy has my jacket chain, one has my trouser chain, a third one has my cap and probably another guy has my saber (it was called a portepee?). Maybe they used it for a document.

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Q: How long did you and Grandma date?

A: At least about 2 1/2 years. She was in Silesia and I was in Calais.

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Q: How often did you see each other?

A: While I was in Calais, I could go for 3 days to Silesia every 3-5 weeks. The war (in the west) was over in 1940. This probably was around mid-to late 1940, we stayed in bunkers in the so-called West-Wall (type of fortification; berm); the berm was built facing in the direction of England. Unfortunately, I don't have any pictures of the berm (Calais) and its construction. From there, I always caught a train to Silesia.

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Q: How do you feel about that time?

A: I don't have any bad feelings about that time. It was really nice. The war was over for us; we were in Calais and we signaled to the British with our lights and they signaled back to us. We watched them when they tested their lights and they watched us when we tested our 2-meter beams. It was different from whenever the planes came (from England). If we moved anything only slightly, then they shot at us like pigs. They flew at us at a right angle so we layed down on the floor and had to wait until they left.

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Q: Those were the British?

A: Yes, those were the British. Later on, the Americans joined in. Later, when Eisenhower pulled together his Army, the Americans came as well. They came with the "two-story" fighter planes and the Spitfire.

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Q: You actually saw all of that?

A: I had to be very careful; I was not about to let myself get shot up by them. Dunkirk. One night I was told that I had to report to this unit. So, I searched for the unit during the night. There was a guardpost by this unit so that no one could enter. So I told the guard who I was and that I needed to see the battery commander. Well, the guard said that the commander is in the bunker over there, sleeping. So I asked him who the commander is and the guard said that the Commander's name is Schuredutz. I said "Schuredutz; I was in training with this guy." The guard finally let me in although he was sure that the commander was going to chew him out. I called someone else to give me directions to the main bunker. I went in, took him to wake him up. He could not believe his eyes.

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Q: And then, what happened? Was everything okay?

A: Everything was okay.